A Preliminary Framework for Warfare and Conflict in General

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Re: A Preliminary Framework for Warfare and Conflict in General

Post by Joe Joerson on Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:38 pm

I had this large post and everything then Theclans ninja'd all of it. Oh, well, except for a small portion about how easy it would be to render a planet uninhabitable for a large population for several decades but that is almost irrelevant.

I would also add England's and France's resolve during the Zeppelin bombings of Paris and London during World War 1.

And would have to agree with the last sentence there.

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Re: A Preliminary Framework for Warfare and Conflict in General

Post by Caspoi on Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:45 pm

Theclans wrote:
Caspoi wrote:I could imagine that species A uses it on a colony of species B so as to show that they are not to be messed with and that species B should surrender.

If Species B was smart, that would result in an empire wide propaganda machine to encourage the defense of the homeland. See Starship Troopers, America's entry into World War 2 with the destruction of the Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, England being shelled once by accident(?) by German battleships in World War 1, England's resolve during the terror bombings of London by Germany in World War 2, and September 11th and the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. Acts of terror only strengthens a nation's resolve. That would only work on a nation so technologically inferior that such a weapon would inspire absolute awe.

Committing either an atrocity or an overreaction in order to convince people not to mess with you only works on the personal level, or through a dedicated campaign against weaker targets.

It is possible, although at this point I think that you should separate how a human would react and how an Alien would react.


And if my planet is blockaded by an Alien fleet that has orived itself both able and willing to use such weapons I might surrender against them. There is one thing to do some terror bombings that people still Think that they can fight against and win moreover, it is quite Another to be facing an enemy that could annihalate you, everyone you know as well as billions of others with a single button and you wouldn't be able to stop him. Under such circumstances I Think that most humans would surrender.

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Re: A Preliminary Framework for Warfare and Conflict in General

Post by The Clans on Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:16 am

Caspoi wrote:
Theclans wrote:
Caspoi wrote:I could imagine that species A uses it on a colony of species B so as to show that they are not to be messed with and that species B should surrender.

If Species B was smart, that would result in an empire wide propaganda machine to encourage the defense of the homeland. See Starship Troopers, America's entry into World War 2 with the destruction of the Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, England being shelled once by accident(?) by German battleships in World War 1, England's resolve during the terror bombings of London by Germany in World War 2, and September 11th and the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. Acts of terror only strengthens a nation's resolve. That would only work on a nation so technologically inferior that such a weapon would inspire absolute awe.

Committing either an atrocity or an overreaction in order to convince people not to mess with you only works on the personal level, or through a dedicated campaign against weaker targets.

It is possible, although at this point I think that you should separate how a human would react and how an Alien would react.


And if my planet is blockaded by an Alien fleet that has orived itself both able and willing to use such weapons I might surrender against them. There is one thing to do some terror bombings that people still Think that they can fight against and win moreover, it is quite Another to be facing an enemy that could annihalate you, everyone you know as well as billions of others with a single button and you wouldn't be able to stop him. Under such circumstances I Think that most humans would surrender.

If aliens were to show up and attack Earth right now? Totally. Maybe. Probably after we launch all of our nukes at them. People only surrender when all other options are off the table especially governments who can go into exile if they're forced to capitulate power. Also, for all intents and purposes, alien and human psychologies may as well be the same in this RP, except viewed through different lenses as dictated by their Ethos. Like I said earlier, this isn't the Cthulhu Mythos where alien beings are all powerful and completely unknowable. Alien leaders are going to want to do the same thing that human leaders do, to manipulate the lower masses with ideology to meet a more logical goal like acquiring more territory, material or financial resources, or political power for themselves.

Joe Joerson wrote:I had this large post and everything then Theclans ninja'd all of it. Oh, well, except for a small portion about how easy it would be to render a planet uninhabitable for a large population for several decades but that is almost irrelevant.

I would also add England's and France's resolve during the Zeppelin bombings of Paris and London during World War 1.  

And would have to agree with the last sentence there.

History Buff Bros. ... ACTIVATE! Form of...

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Re: A Preliminary Framework for Warfare and Conflict in General

Post by Joe Joerson on Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:01 am

Caspoi wrote:It is possible, although at this point I think that you should separate how a human would react and how an Alien would react.


And if my planet is blockaded by an Alien fleet that has orived itself both able and willing to use such weapons I might surrender against them. There is one thing to do some terror bombings that people still Think that they can fight against and win moreover, it is quite Another to be facing an enemy that could annihalate you, everyone you know as well as billions of others with a single button and you wouldn't be able to stop him. Under such circumstances I Think that most humans would surrender.
 

Ah but what if the Humans don't know that if they surrender whether they get to live or not or if the aliens will just massacre them in a more planetary body friendly way?

Theclans wrote:History Buff Bros. ... ACTIVATE! Form of...

Hmm...

Go Histron Force:

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Re: A Preliminary Framework for Warfare and Conflict in General

Post by Offizier Necro on Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:30 am

Theclans wrote:History Buff Bros. ... ACTIVATE! Form of...
...an angrier and somewhat larger guy!
Spoiler:

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Re: A Preliminary Framework for Warfare and Conflict in General

Post by Caspoi on Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:34 am

Theclans wrote:
Caspoi wrote:
Theclans wrote:
Caspoi wrote:I could imagine that species A uses it on a colony of species B so as to show that they are not to be messed with and that species B should surrender.

If Species B was smart, that would result in an empire wide propaganda machine to encourage the defense of the homeland. See Starship Troopers, America's entry into World War 2 with the destruction of the Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, England being shelled once by accident(?) by German battleships in World War 1, England's resolve during the terror bombings of London by Germany in World War 2, and September 11th and the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. Acts of terror only strengthens a nation's resolve. That would only work on a nation so technologically inferior that such a weapon would inspire absolute awe.

Committing either an atrocity or an overreaction in order to convince people not to mess with you only works on the personal level, or through a dedicated campaign against weaker targets.

It is possible, although at this point I think that you should separate how a human would react and how an Alien would react.


And if my planet is blockaded by an Alien fleet that has orived itself both able and willing to use such weapons I might surrender against them. There is one thing to do some terror bombings that people still Think that they can fight against and win moreover, it is quite Another to be facing an enemy that could annihalate you, everyone you know as well as billions of others with a single button and you wouldn't be able to stop him. Under such circumstances I Think that most humans would surrender.

If aliens were to show up and attack Earth right now? Totally. Maybe. Probably after we launch all of our nukes at them. People only surrender when all other options are off the table especially governments who can go into exile if they're forced to capitulate power. Also, for all intents and purposes, alien and human psychologies may as well be the same in this RP, except viewed through different lenses as dictated by their Ethos. Like I said earlier, this isn't the Cthulhu Mythos where alien beings are all powerful and completely unknowable. Alien leaders are going to want to do the same thing that human leaders do, to manipulate the lower masses with ideology to meet a more logical goal like acquiring more territory, material or financial resources, or political power for themselves.

Joe Joerson wrote:I had this large post and everything then Theclans ninja'd all of it. Oh, well, except for a small portion about how easy it would be to render a planet uninhabitable for a large population for several decades but that is almost irrelevant.

I would also add England's and France's resolve during the Zeppelin bombings of Paris and London during World War 1.  

And would have to agree with the last sentence there.

History Buff Bros. ... ACTIVATE! Form of...

Well obviously the fact that the enemy fleet is still there means that you were unable to remove it. Otherwise this dilemma wouldn't happen. As it is under such a situation people wouldn't really have much more options than annihalation or subjugation.

As for Alien mentality there is of course things between all-powerful and completely unknowable and slightly different humans. In this case I Think that it does not require much difference for aliens to see surrender as a viable option (as well as ones who would never do it on princible of course).
Joe Joerson wrote:
Caspoi wrote:It is possible, although at this point I think that you should separate how a human would react and how an Alien would react.


And if my planet is blockaded by an Alien fleet that has orived itself both able and willing to use such weapons I might surrender against them. There is one thing to do some terror bombings that people still Think that they can fight against and win moreover, it is quite Another to be facing an enemy that could annihalate you, everyone you know as well as billions of others with a single button and you wouldn't be able to stop him. Under such circumstances I Think that most humans would surrender.
 

Ah but what if the Humans don't know that if they surrender whether they get to live or not or if the aliens will just massacre them in a more planetary body friendly way?

Theclans wrote:History Buff Bros. ... ACTIVATE! Form of...

Hmm...

Go Histron Force:

Isn't that still better? he he.

Well whether they know what the aliens are going to do with them depends on how well known these aliens are doesn't it? They will of course be far less likely to surrender if the aliens intend to exterminate them anyway (unless surrendering means that you can take a few of them down with you of course). However even if the aliens were completely unkown uncertain death would still be preferable to certain death, wouldn't it?

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Re: A Preliminary Framework for Warfare and Conflict in General

Post by Vagrant Hero on Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:37 am

I wanted to avoid devolving this thread into a discussion on alien psychology and whether using fallacious arguments such as humans never going to such means, therefore justifying completely alien species not considering these ideas completely reasonable. But whatever.
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Re: A Preliminary Framework for Warfare and Conflict in General

Post by The Clans on Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:38 pm

Vagrant Hero wrote:I wanted to avoid devolving this thread into a discussion on alien psychology and whether using fallacious arguments such as humans never going to such means, therefore justifying completely alien species not considering these ideas completely reasonable. But whatever.
Reread. Not humans, governments. And it's not fallacious when you have a wealth of historic information at your disposal like Joe and I do. If I have a chance to crush philosophical musings and speculation with cold hard facts, hoooo boy. You bet I'm taking that chance. Also see the Fermi Paradox here and here. The first test a species has to pass to reach the stars is to not wipe each other out and be wiped out by something else. If you're willing to exterminate others, you're willing to exterminate yourself, and if you're willing to nuke yourself then you're already dead. Only entities like Fallen Empires would break the mould and exterminate life just for the hell of it without resource gain, and no one here is playing as one or as a Struggling Ascendant.

Now let's get back to talking about the combat system.
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Re: A Preliminary Framework for Warfare and Conflict in General

Post by Vagrant Hero on Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:38 pm

Thank you.

On the subject of how this system could theoretically be applied, I think the current Human-Yuxun vs Swarm conflict aboard the unknown vessel may provide a testing ground for some of these ideas. I like the cooperation going on in the thread, as well as the elements of base defense, sci-fi horror, etc etc. However, there does seem to be some continual tripping up, which is, of course, natural in such a new environment, but greater collaboration and communication in this area with the help of a moderator, can help avoid things like not being entirely certain if anyone is actually dying, the poster being in the position of being able to veto basically anything that happens (which is an exaggeration), and some other oddities that have occurred.

This would require the consent of Theclans, Necro and Caspoi to appoint a moderator of some sort, as well as the creation of a private thread(s), etc etc. It would require more work in general to move forward, and there is no guarantee that this system will actually be effective, or that it won't cause more problems than I would like it to solve. Thoughts?
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Re: A Preliminary Framework for Warfare and Conflict in General

Post by Caspoi on Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:56 pm

How exactly do you think that a moderator would help in this case? What would their task be?

Also, The Clans, what about the mongol system of takign a city? They would tell them that if they did not surrender then they would exterminate everyone inside it. Those who did walked away free, those that did not...

With WMD specifically the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were effective in forcing a japanese surrender (yes I know that there were a lot of factors going on but still). It is not as if such weapons could not have their uses while applied correctly. You may disagree with me but do not say that you have all the facts on your side.

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Re: A Preliminary Framework for Warfare and Conflict in General

Post by The Clans on Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:09 pm

Caspoi wrote:How exactly do you think that a moderator would help in this case? What would their task be?

I think a moderator's task would be to determine casualties and ship destruction, right? In the Human-Yuxu vs. Swarm First Contact Incident, Necro and I knew that boarding the ship was going to result in a game over, man scenario. It was just a matter of how long Caspoi would let us explore the insides of the ship before everything went to hell. The boarding plan and the Corps marines' equipment was mostly fluff and irrelevant. A couple platoons of marines vs an entire cramped colony ship full of Very Strong bugs, there is no overcoming that. It's only a matter of how spectacular the inevitable defeat is and what happens next.

Something like a ground invasion has a lot more variables, like terrain, invading species' familiarity with said terrain, which side has the Strong/Very Strong and Resilient traits, determining whether it's a civilian target or a military one. Everyone needs to enter these threads with the intent to have fun, even if losing is inevitable.
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Re: A Preliminary Framework for Warfare and Conflict in General

Post by Vagrant Hero on Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:25 pm

You said it well, Theclans. A moderators task is to help keep things fun whilst avoiding immersion breaking things in the story. Whether or not victory or defeat is inevitable, it should still flow together, be consistent, give accountability, and above all, have as few miscommunications as possible in order to keep things moving, albeit at a somewhat slower pace.

I briefly touched on what a moderator's duties are in a war thread, but it may give a better idea of what they do if I were to instead call them a Game Master or some other equally evocative title. This is not to say that they are creating the war, or the game, or any other thing, but that they keep track of what player's are doing, receives PMs from both the players on what they are doing and what they have in play, and renders judgements on an engagement and sets the pacing, or intervals of interaction. For example, in this Human-Yuxun boarding incident, it could consist of the initial exploration phase, which can go on for quite some time, the skirmish phase when the aliens aboard the ship began actively engaging with the boarders, a melee phase where full battle is taking place -that may also interlap with the RUN AWAY phase- until an incident is resolved. An incident could be anything from an individual skirmish, to a large battle, to even an entire war if the players want to handle things at such a large scale, or if, indeed, that is the only way things can be handled.

Ideally, all the players will send information to the Moderator about what they are doing, with the necessary info about technology, numbers, tactics, terrain, morale, either being given to or settled by the Moderator until he finally renders a judgment on what happens, which the players then right about. If two players are working together, they can share whatever information they wish with each other (or lie to each other), and they will not know what the other player is sending to to the moderator about what they are doing, unless they are in a position that the Moderator decides they will have some information and will be able to react accordingly.

The ideal here is to create a dynamic system that can handle a wide variety of circumstances without too many "hard rules," but still be fun and fair in a way that goes beyond "I don't think my soldiers would die in this circumstance due to some things I did not post about earlier, but conveniently have at my disposal now." Not saying this has happened, just a potential scenario which could cause a great degree of frustration, like the very real scenario where apparently, someone just destroyed someone else's planet without giving them a real chance to do anything about it, which, with a moderated approach like I propose, would not be an issue.

My original post somehow vanished into the ether, so here is the belated reply.
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Re: A Preliminary Framework for Warfare and Conflict in General

Post by The Clans on Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:32 pm

I think that a moderator should only be called in in case of a dispute. Having to constantly rely on a third party that may disappear for days (like Joe, Zuko, and I do) for incremental progress is going to bog threads down.
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Re: A Preliminary Framework for Warfare and Conflict in General

Post by Vagrant Hero on Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:38 pm

Theclans wrote:I think that a moderator should only be called in in case of a dispute. Having to constantly rely on a third party that may disappear for days (like Joe, Zuko, and I do) for incremental progress is going to bog threads down.

A reasonable and viable solution. Would definitely be a lot faster than what I propose, regardless of whether or not the moderator is keeping up, or gone for some time. Exactly when a moderator is wanted/needed should be up to the players involved, and if the players have no real disputes or conflicts with each other, then I agree that a moderator simply is not necessary for such a situation. However, I predict that wars between players will be one of those situations that should be relatively slow, and have a moderator on hand due to the seriousness involved, whereas a small skirmish aboard a seemingly abandoned ship may not be one of those situations.
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