Re: Discussion

by **Joe Joerson** Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:28 pm

In the end it's going to come down to what Far Star, and their personnel, value more.

The Xengari would likely not like the Chakos trading with enemies very much at all but they also will likely just buy more stuff to try to win rather than actually stopping trade.

by The Clans Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:41 pm

This is going to be interesting then since Far Star sets up franchises that are mostly independent.

by **Joe Joerson** Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:45 pm

Fun times all around. At least until someone gets technology similar to Far Star's then there might be some problems...

by Vagrant Hero Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:55 pm

I'm just amused by the irony of the materialist empire preaching enlightenment to the spiritualists. Its glorious.

by Caspoi Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:58 pm

Well their ideology is basically their religon, that is how seriously they take it.

by **Joe Joerson** Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:20 pm

Vagrant Hero wrote:I'm just amused by the irony of the materialist empire preaching enlightenment to the spiritualists. Its glorious.

Indeed.

Caspoi wrote:Well their ideology is basically their religion, that is how seriously they take it.

Or you could say that their ideology is basically their ideology? I mean people take both pretty seriously...

by Vagrant Hero Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:22 pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Ideologues ruin everything. :c

by Caspoi Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:26 pm

Joe Joerson wrote:
Or you could say that their ideology is basically their ideology? I mean people take both pretty seriously...

Of course, and there have been ideolical fundamentalists, some ideologies (such as fachism, communism, anarkism etc.) encourage to the point of requiring it. However if we look at things from a historical perspective (not so much today where a large part of the world has been heavily secularised) then religion has been far more important to most people.

by **Joe Joerson** Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:22 pm

From a historical perspective religion and ideology has had their time.

Religion has been the driving force in recorded Human history from ancient times in the daily life of most people, however in the twentieth century (give or take depending of definition) ideology became much more important, or at least an equal of, religion in the lives of most people.

If we look at the time that you speak of, where the world presumably hasn't been heavily secularized given your definition, nations are, obviously or not, less advanced than the twentieth century when Fascism and Communism had large power in countries. A shift away from Religion being the power it once was.

First let us get into definitions. A simple google search will provide you with the following definitions from Merriam-Webster.

define Religion:

define Ideology:

So we can get that generally speaking using these definitions and our knowledge about the regions we are talking about. By definition most religion are also ideologies. However while most ideologies that we think of as ideologies, Communism, Fascism, etc. etc., deal with things in the material world and focus on that. They don't speculate on the afterlife, that is often more a focus for religions. Religions focus on answering the questions including afterlife and other such things that are not in the materialistic world and generally a world-view in the materialistic world, whereas most ideologies focus on providing a world-view about the materialistic world and that's it.

So does it deal with the Afterlife? Reincarnation? Other things not considered generally to be apart of the materialistic world? Or do they stop at death? Will you benefit society by your toil? Or will provide a better afterlife for yourself? Enlightenment and Nirvana? Progress and Betterment? These questions and ones like them define whether something is a Religion or Ideology. However what we are focusing on is not whether or not the belief is ideology or Religion but has to do with this shift in history.

So as the twentieth century came around not only were Religions weaker in Europe than ever before but now strong new scientific answers arose to answer questions that before only Religion could answer. And people at the time had strong desires to change things in the material world, to better things for their group, or culture. So the shift happened, people believed in other people who said that they could bring about the change they wanted many people believed in the ones who spoke until the Speakers had power to do what they wished justifying that they had not yet seen how it could lead to the wanted change. Ideology took the reigns, often promoting Atheism and other new belief to defeat the old belief that it had beaten, Religion.

Now we get to why I typed up a large amount of text in the first place. Religion has been far more important to people who lived in the majority of history yes. However, they all died. The only thing that really matters in the material world because of this is what they changed before dying, so to say that something is their Religion to show how strongly they believe is fine, however to say that something is their Religion because people used to strongly believe in it, and that shows how strongly they believe is not fine. Just because something used to be true or historically has been true, has no impact on whether it is or will be true now or in the future. Only the conditions and reasons for something to be true effect whether it will be true. So yes I did just type all this just to say "You're right but not for that reason."

tl;dr

I'm not typing one read the whole thing for my point:

by Vagrant Hero Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:31 pm

I think this song goes fairly well with the tl;dr. Deal with it. Dotodyne style.

But yes, an insightful read. I have quite a lot of personal disgust with specific religions and certain non-religions ideologies. This disgust derives from a tendency to have an in-group out-group dynamic that is extremely disruptive and, in more extreme examples, dangerous. Islam is a very good example of such an ideology, with various sutras and hadiths dedicated to talking about how it is okay to lie to unbelievers, how you need to defend Islam, how killing a believer intentionally is a sin (which leads to the obvious conclusion that it is not a sin to kill unbelievers), etc etc. Some people take the stance that all religion is equally bad, but a simple analysis of what a religion preaches shows that some are definitely worse than others when it comes to this shit.

by Caspoi Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:33 pm

Yes I agree on most, and that how I phrased the initial statement was faulty.

by Caspoi Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:37 pm

By the way, why are all the diplomatic threads apart from mine and Vagrant Hero's dead? Some have not properly ended yet and I see many forum members still being active on the discussion thread for instance.

by Vagrant Hero Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:39 pm

I think people have been fairly busy for the most part, and I know that The Clans and Joerson are working on something that is taking their time. Necro has also been struck down by the foul arts of dentistry, and I'm not sure about Zuko.

by **Joe Joerson** Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:43 pm

Vagrant Hero wrote:I think this song goes fairly well with the tl;dr. Deal with it. Dotodyne style.

But yes, an insightful read. I have quite a lot of personal disgust with specific religions and certain non-religions ideologies. This disgust derives from a tendency to have an in-group out-group dynamic that is extremely disruptive and, in more extreme examples, dangerous. Islam is a very good example of such an ideology, with various sutras and hadiths dedicated to talking about how it is okay to lie to unbelievers, how you need to defend Islam, how killing a believer intentionally is a sin (which leads to the obvious conclusion that it is not a sin to kill unbelievers), etc etc. Some people take the stance that all religion is equally bad, but a simple analysis of what a religion preaches shows that some are definitely worse than others when it comes to this shit.

I will simply say two things, one everything should be judged on it's merits and everything human is not monolithic so one should be wary of premature judgement in all things. Two lets get back to forum conversation.

Caspoi wrote:Yes I agree on most, and that how I phrased the initial statement was faulty.

Glad you do.

Caspoi wrote:By the way, why are all the diplomatic threads apart from mine and Vagrant Hero's dead? Some have not properly ended yet and I see many forum members still being active on the discussion thread for instance.

Not dead, just sleeping.

Vagrant Hero wrote:I think people have been fairly busy for the most part, and I know that The Clans and Joerson are working on something that is taking their time. Necro has also been struck down by the foul arts of dentistry, and I'm not sure about Zuko.

Zuko is busy with something, hasn't logged in since the 29th.

by Vagrant Hero Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:56 pm

I fully agree with judging all things based on their merits. But yeah, don't want to derail this into fully factually based argumentation on what Islam really is.

Any idea when Zuko gets back?

by **Joe Joerson** Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:22 am

No idea when he gets back.

Also the Cirnii Imperial selection system seems similar to what I have for the Dotodyne.

by **Joe Joerson** Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:31 am

The Clans wrote:So ehh... In closing, don't bring it up again unless you want to get your figurative shit kicked in. Get me?

by Offizier Necro Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:34 am

Vagrant Hero wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again. Ideologues ruin everything. :c

[FREEDOM INTENSIFIES]

by **Joe Joerson** Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:39 am

Offizier Necro wrote:[FREEDOM INTENSIFIES]

FREEDOM INTENSIFIES:

by Offizier Necro Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:50 am

Joe Joerson wrote:

Pictured: Leaked footage from classified Freeman military program

by Vagrant Hero Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:11 am

Offizier Necro wrote:Pictured: Leaked footage from classified Freeman military program

Successful exportation of "freedom."

by The Clans Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:26 am

Joe Joerson wrote:
The Clans wrote:So ehh... In closing, don't bring it up again unless you want to get your figurative shit kicked in. Get me?

Vagrant Hero wrote:I think this song goes fairly well with the tl;dr. Deal with it. Dotodyne style.

But yes, an insightful read. I have quite a lot of personal disgust with specific religions and certain non-religions ideologies. This disgust derives from a tendency to have an in-group out-group dynamic that is extremely disruptive and, in more extreme examples, dangerous. Islam is a very good example of such an ideology, with various sutras and hadiths dedicated to talking about how it is okay to lie to unbelievers, how you need to defend Islam, how killing a believer intentionally is a sin (which leads to the obvious conclusion that it is not a sin to kill unbelievers), etc etc. Some people take the stance that all religion is equally bad, but a simple analysis of what a religion preaches shows that some are definitely worse than others when it comes to this shit.

Vagrant Hero wrote:I fully agree with judging all things based on their merits. But yeah, don't want to derail this into fully factually based argumentation on what Islam really is.

Any idea when Zuko gets back?

What, my post gets deleted and the least important part gets quoted and parroted back like a comedian putting a heckler on blast for crowd control, and it's just being left there as a reminder, like said comedian making the heckler a continuing part of the fucking act for cheap jabs, but Vagrant Hero's bullshit is left up unaltered? The fuck is this?

by Vagrant Hero Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:27 am

It was not deleted. It was moved.

https://stellarisroleplay.rpg-board.net/t141-please-debate-calmly-and-reasonably#2047

by **Joe Joerson** Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:30 am

The Clans wrote:What, my post gets deleted and the least important part gets quoted and parroted back like a comedian putting a heckler on blast for crowd control, and it's just being left there as a reminder, like said comedian making the heckler a continuing part of the fucking act for cheap jabs, but Vagrant Hero's bullshit is left up unaltered? The fuck is this?

It was moved I sent a private message but since it did not go through apparently, I will link you to the page.

Sorry for the confusion.

by The Clans Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:55 am

Joe Joerson wrote:
The Clans wrote:What, my post gets deleted and the least important part gets quoted and parroted back like a comedian putting a heckler on blast for crowd control, and it's just being left there as a reminder, like said comedian making the heckler a continuing part of the fucking act for cheap jabs, but Vagrant Hero's bullshit is left up unaltered? The fuck is this?

It was moved I sent a private message but since it did not go through apparently, I will link you to the page.

Sorry for the confusion.

I didn't see the message until after I had posted and for that I apologize, but due to the impersonal tone of the message that I'd expect to get from an organization rather than a person that I'm acquainted with, I wasn't inclined to say anything since for all I knew it could have been from an automated mail service. That and neutral, impersonal language that's supposed to calm people down (I guess?) only riles me up even more so that nothing I could have said after reading (like now) would have been remotely positive. I'll probably apologize for this too at some point, but now I'm going to bed.

by **Joe Joerson** Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:58 am

Alright, good night then, see ya tomorrow. Smile

by Caspoi Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:52 pm

I wonder, should there be some "recruitment effort" considering how we are fairly few right now and there seems to be an upsurge of renewed Stellaris roleplaying enthusiasm on the main forum?

by **Joe Joerson** Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:02 pm

I wondered that as well upon seeing the new enthusiasm, however it would be less than polite to simply go into their thread and post 'Hey it looks like you guys are having fun, why don't you completely abandon this and go to our forum instead!'

Simply put it would be wise if one were to do such to either

A: Create new recruitment thread.

B: Resurrect the old not very good recruitment thread.

C: Start conversations with the individual people

D: Not actually care about being polite at all and just doing exactly what I said previously

E: Not actually try to recruit anybody

by Offizier Necro Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:23 pm

I don't really post on the Paradox forums, so I don't have much experience to know what would be the best strategy. I'd suggest options A or C, as it's very rude to barge in on random people's RPs and try to kill their in the RPs' own threads, which would also push people to avoid joining "those annoying jerks". If we recruit people 'peacefully', then that would avoid a pushback effect.

Unrelated to anything, but just thought I'd share it because the thread's quieted down and I don't have anything else to add: That thing where the Freemen were kept quarantining and otherwise taking excessive precautions with anyone who interacted in person with aliens at first is actually based off of an IRL policy with the Moon missions, where everyone visiting the Moon would be forced into quarantine for a while in the unlikely event of pathogens living on the Moon. This stopped once we 100% confirmed a lack of any and all life on the moon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Quarantine_Facility

by **Joe Joerson** Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:27 pm

Offizier Necro wrote:I don't really post on the Paradox forums, so I don't have much experience to know what would be the best strategy. I'd suggest options A or C, as it's very rude to barge in on random people's RPs and try to kill their in the RPs' own threads, which would also push people to avoid joining "those annoying jerks". If we recruit people 'peacefully', then that would avoid a pushback effect.

Unrelated to anything, but just thought I'd share it because the thread's quieted down and I don't have anything else to add: That thing where the Freemen were kept quarantining and otherwise taking excessive precautions with anyone who interacted in person with aliens at first is actually based off of an IRL policy with the Moon missions, where everyone visiting the Moon would be forced into quarantine for a while in the unlikely event of pathogens living on the Moon. This stopped once we 100% confirmed a lack of any and all life on the moon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Quarantine_Facility

Thinking about such quarantines diseases wouldn't really spread that well between aliens and Humans would they? (Or Aliens and other Aliens.) I mean there would be a very low chance of a disease being effective by pure evolution alone.

Though admittedly that thinking probably doesn't help when that small chance turns out true does it...

...I feel bad for the Martians from H.G. Well's book. Never saw it coming...

...Even if they did eat tons of humans essentially, though that probably didn't help on that whole disease front...

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